On Bill Maher last month, Jorge Ramos of Univision objected to illegal immigrants being called illegal. There are a lot of problems with the immigration issue, many of them governmental, but a few have to do with the way Americans look at the problem. There is no way to get around the fact that if you are in the country illegally, you are breaking the law and should be held accountable for doing so. People employing illegal immigrants should be prosecuted as well. Schools should be reporting students that they know to be illegal. Hospitals should immediately report patients that they know to be illegal. I also think that if illegals aren't paying property taxes or income taxes, they should not receive the same services as people who do. If their house catches on fire or a robber invades, they don't really have the right to call the fire department or police because they haven't paid for those services. Much of the problem, like many we have, has to do with the complacency of the American people.
Also on Bill Maher and related to immigration, author Erica Jong stated that American workers won't do the jobs that illegals will do. She specifically stated that you cannot get an American woman to be a nanny (I guess the years I spent as one don't count, and neither do my friends who have made it their career). Senator Dana Rohrbacher was right when he said that Americans will do the jobs, they just have to be paid a decent wage. The problem isn't the illegal immigrants, it's the cheap, greedy Americans who refuse to pay people a wage they can live on. Besides all of that, if the welfare system were eliminated for able-bodied citizens, people WOULD do the jobs illegals are doing or starve. This isn't like the depression. The jobs are out there.
Finally, if the process of becoming a legal immigrant were easier, many more people would do it. For someone in a country like Colombia to have to pay a $100 (American) registration fee just to get denied is nearly impossible. That's almost a year's salary, for some several years. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a fee, but it should be adjusted to fit a professional salary in the country of the applicant. To have the same fee across the board is extremely unfair, and obviously, contributes to the illegal immigration problem.
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30 comments:
Ditto, Ditto, Ditto!!!
Great post, Polanco! Let's go after the businesses propping up illegal immigration. Also, let's hope and push for reform measures in Mexico that are driving these people to seek a better life in the first place. People have got to live, and Vincente Fox needs to quit shoving them out of the door. BUSH needs to pull his head out of his rectum as well and push Fox.
I'm frustrated with Bush on this issue. I DON'T want to get started!
*cough*
Is this you?
Yes, they are illegal but let's not be drawing lines in the sand over semantics, this covers the point that the person who usually gets the blame in all of this is the immigrant seekimg work, the one at the bottom of the chain gets all the pain.
So yes, focus the attention on those that use cheap labour and then you'll get a shock, the US econmy with its drive for profit and low costs to maximise said profit is built on illegal immigration, it is propped up by the very people you mention.
So by all means get them to pay proper wages to people and by all means punish them for employing cheap labour but then also accept the impact that'll have on your economy. Somehow I can't see the majority of the US people buying that for a dollar.
And sorry, remove welfare? And you prop this up with the statement that there are plenty of jobs out there?
Only in America is welfare a bad thing, the US is the only Western nation not to have a decent welfare system, every other democracy prides itself on providing for those in need.
Sometimes I worry for the very future of out planet when everything is so centred on the individual rather than the greater good.
And this is a nation full of Christians?
DHG:
So "illegal" is just semantics? How about "homophobe?" Semantics as well?
Illegal is like, you know, something like you do that the law prohibits, like, well, coming into a country without permission? So if Britain had proportionally the same amount of illegal Arabs flooding into the country taking all those low paying jobs that Brits don't like to do, you don't think that Britain would feel the effects?
Methinks you would, like maybe, you know?
The illegals are not really the problem. They will go where the best money they can get is, and if that's in America, that's where they'll go, and damn walls, cops, rivers, deserts, or huge killer robots wielding spinning blades (were such a thing to exist). To stop the illegals, you have to stop the people hiring them. If they couldnt make money, they wouldnt come. Period.
Dont blame the illegals, they're just trying to make they're lives a little better (or, in some cases, a lot better). It's the same thing we, and everybody, does.
As for breaking the law, do you always drive the speed limit? Do you come to a complete stop at the sign? Do you try every time to stop when the light turns yellow? Do you scoop your dog's poop in public places every time? Do you occassionally take a roll of tape home from the office? Do you have any musical CD's that have been copied (or given a copy to a friend)? Does your cable company know you've got that extra hook-up in the bedroom? Have you ever gotten really stupid drunk in public?
All these things are illegal also, but people do them anyway, for less good reason than poor immigrants have for coming here to work.
As for taxes, instead of worrying about the taxes on the pittance that most illegals earn, how about worrying about the taxes on the ill-gotten gains of those who hire them? If they're paying their workers in cash, what else are they doing in cash, and what are the odds that the IRS knows about it?
As for property taxes "not being paid", this is one of the dumber arguements that's out there right now. If you own property, illegal or not, you pay taxes or the government takes that property away. If you rent, you pay taxes also. You will never find a landlord who shrugs his shoulders and takes his losses when taxes go up. Higher taxes = higher rent. period.
That said, and before I face any high dudgeons here, let me also say this. Illegals should not:
a) have their U.S. born children be given citizenship.
b) be allowed to go to school without at least some sort of nominal fee. I'm more inclined to say that they shouldnt be at school at all, but that's a pretty selfish attitude, plus if they're not in school who knows what kind of trouble they might be up to (just like legal kids).
c) I'm not fond of the idea of a national I.D. card (not at all), but I might concede we need one, just so we can seperate the legal from the illegal. But No RF chip!
d) No spanish in schools. Almost all of the Spanish-speakers that are catered to in Texas schools are illegals. There's talk of giving bonuses to Spanish speaking teachers who teach Bi-lingual classes, which have been proven time and again to not work at all. Plus, they are recruiting teachers from Mexico to give these bonuses to. Maybe there arent any American teachers who want the positions, but maybe that's because these positions shouldnt exist.
So there's my position, now lemme have it!
UL: You like being a victim don't you? You draw a situation of people in genuine poverty and struggle and bring it back to your prejudice towards gay-lesbian and bi-sexual people. Illegal is demonising language that enable people to bully pulpit the immigrants rather than the system or those that employ, as Dave has marked out in his comment.
I actually researched the immigration situation in the US and posted on it here, I'd read it before you talk of a swarm. In a nutshell though:
US pop is 295 million, immigrants allowed in is 1 million, immigrants turned away or ejected after getting in comes to a total of 2.3 million.
Not so much a swarm as a tour party.
Your comments on the UK show how little you know of the asylum situation in the UK, which is the top destination of immigrants due to our healthy economy, excellent free health service, welfare system and public housing and although some right-wing rags have a field day blaming them for everything, we do our best to make them feel welcome and be part of our nation.
Take away the carrot and they will not come here. If you think that people are risking their lives to work for virtual slave wages just so they can break our laws you are ignorant to the issue. If you think they are here just for the benefits then you don't look past your own borders in an effort to understand.
Illegal immigration is something that corporate America does not want fixed. It is legalized slavery. While the wage that the immigrants are being paid is often more than they would make in their home countries it is an exploitive wage not even coming close to our current minimum wage. Enforcement of current labor and immigration laws would solve the problem. Unfortunately corporate America has its tentacles so deeply rooted in every level of our government that enforcement is not given it proper funding, manpower or priority. The American public turns a blind eye to this side of the equation because it doesn't feed the racist impulse and we worship corporate profit.
That said, It's all about the money. If the jobs with which the immigrants are being lured paid a decent wage Americans would do them. But this would cut into the profits of the Agro-Corps and we can't have that. The notion that the American public demands cheaper goods and that somehow how justifies this type of immoral and illegal activity by Corporations is an insult.
Businesses not only employ undocumented workers to pay as little as they can in wages, but also to avoid payroll taxes, FICA, health insurance, etc., in other words paying their fair share of the cost of America. They try to get us to believe that by not using undocumented labor raising immigrant pay to minimum wage and all that comes with it would raise prices of food substantially.
That is just pure bullshit. Studies have been done for years that show the effect of paying all agricultural workers minimum wages, payroll taxes, benefits etc would raise the cost between 2 and 6 percent depending on the season in the short term, equalized by imports in the intermediate term and the economy would adjust to the benefit of workers, consumers and business. Here is one study. Lou Dobbs recently did a poll asking whether or not people would pay more for food if they new it was produced by Americans making a living wage and they overwhelmingly responded that they would. Maybe the American public isn't as selfish and greedy as the corporations want us to think we are.
We also have to ask ourselves if we as a culture can condone and in fact profit from the exploitation and resulting misery of other people. Much of the economic despair in Central and South America from which most of the immigrants come is due in no small part to American intervention directly, indirectly and done on behalf of Corporate interests during the 1970's and 1980's. The impact of our actions in the countries like Nicaragua, Honduras, Costa Rica, Guatemala, and El Salvador will be felt for generations to come. Go to those countries and see for yourself.
We should also think about the notion that there needs to be a pathway to citizenship for immigrant workers. Why? The notion that immigrant workers need to take some sort of Civics test is laughable. Most Americans couldn't pass a civics test. Not all immigrant workers want to be Americans. Most don't. They want to work here because they can't at their homes. Oh, the ego on us Americans.
The problem would go away if we;
Forced businesses to pay a living wage so Americans can take these jobs and survive.
Severely punished businesses that employed undocumented workers at these virtual slave rates.
Use American might to aid the recovering nations in our hemisphere to raise the opportunity there for these people thus shrinking the external labor pool.
Once the above are established and a level of need is determined for immigrant labor we put in place a well-monitored guest worker program.
*cough* *gag* Wow DHG, you are very well informed about the myriad of welfare services offered in the UK. While I am sure those who access these bountiful services are ever so grateful, I pity the poor WORKING class who must keep shelling out more and more of their money to welcome more immigrants to a cup of tea, a cozy home, a free education and someone to take care of their aching feet after their arduous travels to your brilliant shores. No bother, the working stiffs just keep giving till it hurts. Dreamy. You really know what you are doing over there. It is a shame that for all your hospitality your immigrant communities are spawning subway bombers to express their thanks. Maybe if your workers would be less miserly and dig a little deeper they would be more appreciative.
Over here, we are fat, bloated and stupid barbarians. So why can't we get our "migrant guests" to leave? More befuddling than that, why does Mexico encourage them to go to America? Hmmmm. Now, they not only want to live here "illegally", but they have taken to throwing American flag burning parties in public places. Yup, they are waving Mexican flags defiantly for . . . something. Hmmmm. Do you think you would like a few for yoursleves?
I think the problem with the word "illegal" is that it is too broad an "us vs. them" word. It is so black and white, absolutist. Why don't we simply round up anyone who does anything illegal and execute them? Murder is illegal, we execute people for that, why should there be any gray area?
A better word (phrase) is "queue jumpers". They are usually not criminals in the traditional sense, and end up in illegal activity only because of their illegal immigration status. They often do not know what they have done is illegal under our laws, until they are here and being coerced into silence by more lies about what will happen if they go to the authorities.
"Illegals" are often victims of criminal human smugglers, then they are revictimized by criminal sweat shop operators here. I would say put 10% of resources into finding and deporting "illegals", and 90% into prosecuting the businesses that employ them and bring them here.
The other group of people seldom mentioned in this is the people all over the world, standing patiently in the legal line, while the queue jumpers take their places, and slow down the line. Nobody is protesting on their behalf, because they are invisible from here.
So as others have said, go after the businesses involved. Focus on that. Deport those that are caught, mainly because word does get out in the originating countries that queue jumping does not work.
DHG:
The term "illegal" is demonizing? In your dreams. Poor illegals, they can't help it. Let's just let everyone come in make them all feel at home like they do in Britain. Tell me, who pays for all the freebies on your island?
Cranky:
Though I agree that businesses that hire the illegals provide the carrot for the illegals, the illegals provide a carrot for businesses as well. It cuts both ways.
UL - Yes, of course. The people in the 3rd world are part of a global plot to drive down American wages. They are purposely starving in squalor under a disproportionate distribution of wealth that ensures little or no economic options just so they can come to the U.S. and work for slave wages.
Sounds about right...
Cranky:
Why doesn't somebody nuke us and rid the damn planet of us. Then all the money will flow back into the hands of the 3rd world and there'll be peace in the valley...
What idiocy!
Hey UL, if Dubya actually chooses to use nukes in Iran, you may get your wish.
Boy talk about foolish comments that last one took the cake.
I agree that the companies/people that hire illegals should be fined. Heacvily. I did a post about that a couple of weeks ago to a thunderous silence. guess I was ahead of the boat. As long as there is a chance to get the job that is better than the one at home (no matter how exploitive we may call it) the illegals will come. As long as they get hired. IF we raise the wages on the jobs they have now more will come to get the increased money becasue they will still be willing to work for less and work harder for less.
I'll be honest I am a bit more of an open boarder kind of guy although I think there should be strict requirements for speaking english and passing that civics test for citizenship. (Frankly, I think you should be required to pass one to vote too but that will never float in this society)
UL - exactly, idiocy indeed!
Some people don't get it.
Daniel, I agree that the illegal usually gets all of the blame and that is unfair, but they dio deserve some of it. The ARE breaking the law. I have A LOT of LEAGL immigrants in my family, and I feel it is unfair to all of those who worked hard and went through the process to be pre-empted by people who just walked across the boarder. How does that teach them the American ideal of justice? It only teaches them that there's always a way around the system. Welfare is a bad thing in America because it is frequently given to people who don't need it. Tyhere ARE pleanty of jobs (not necessarily ones that people would choose, but if you're starving, does it really matter?), especially when we start prosecuting those who are hiring illegal immigrants. Hotels and restaurants are the biggest culprits of this. Everything here IS centered on the individual, but getting rid of illegal immigration is for the greater good. We care too much about the world's citizens and not nearly enough about our own.
Dave,
If we're going to throw away the law on illegals, why not just throw away all of the laws? We need to protect the laws that actually protect Americans. Poop scooping isn't all that important to national security. As for taxes, even if it's just 5 cents, it's five cents that they owe our government, and our government wants it. I don't get paid well and I pay taxes. Why should they be able to not pay taxes and I have to?
a) have their U.S. born children be given citizenship - I agree. If you are illegal when you get here, your children are illegal when they are born here. Their chilren should not be eligible for any of the benefits of citizenship, and the mother and child should be deported immediately after the child's birth. In some countries people are encouraged to visit the US while they're pregnant and stay so that their kids will be US citizens.
b) be allowed to go to school without at least some sort of nominal fee - I think they shouldn't be allowed to go to school at all, and I'm a teacher who believes in the importance of education. If you're illegal, you don't get a free and public education. More teachers need to be hired when illegals go to school, and as a result, teachers get paid less and receive fewer benefits. Even sending their children to private school takes space away from American students.
c) I'm not fond of the idea of a national I.D. card (not at all), but I might concede we need one, just so we can seperate the legal from the illegal - We NEED ID cards. I don't think they should have any tracking or fingerprinting information on them, but we need them. The state driver's liscences are not a good system because they're too easy to forge. A National ID card should be used and presented (but not swiped) when we buy something, get jobs, etc, just like it is in most countries. We are only hurting ourselves by resisting this identification tool.
d) No spanish in schools - I completely disagree. We need to be teaching Spanish, Chinese, and Arabic in schools from a young age so that our kids can compete on a global scale. Americans arew arrogant about language and other cultures and we need to change that immediately.
Cranky,
Excellent comment, thank you!
Lavos,
Don't you mean levantan sus manos? Your post made absolutely no sense.m Please don't comment unless you have something constructive to contribute. We don't just tear apart others' comments here.
Anonymous,
First, I like people who visit frequently to choose a name. Second, it IS an US versus THEM thing. They are in our country illegally and taking jobs, services, and good away from Americans. A criminal is someone who breaks the law, no matter how small the infration. They are criminals. I'll admit that I am one as well.
I wish to make two comments. First, a couple of commentors said that if American companies were forced to provide decent wages, it would stop the problem by attracting American's back to that profession. Do you not think illegal immigrants would be more attracted now to the same job and come in higher numbers? You are making the assumption that cheap wages are the only thing that attracts illegals to an occupation. Illegals are less likely to complain about all kinds of things including the work conditions or moving to a different job if it jeapordizes their illegal status being found out. There are many reasons illegals are attractive to employers, not just wages.
The second point, fining companies for hiring illegals will only work if you can prove the company knowing hired them. I spoke with an employer of illegal immigrants. He said everyone of them has proper documentation. Of course they are fake but he legally can not investigate it further without risking affirmative action lawsuits for digging to deeply into an individuals past. He has to accept it on faith that the documentation is real. So if he legally can't determine if they are here illegally, how can he be held liable.
I think the only real solution is to stop them at the border. The jobs that go vacant because of no illegal work force readily available will increase their wages and pass it on to the consumers as should any supply and demand economy would. Eventually, somebody will do the job. Look at the coal mining industry. Its a risky and a very crappy job but those that do it get very good wages.
That should have read:
You are making the assumption that cheap wages are the only thing that makes employers hire illegals to an occupation.
I'm not making that assuption. Cheap wages ARE what attracts EMPLOYERS to hire illegals. Sometimes they pay real wages, but not always. There are high school kids and people without jobs who would do what illegals are doing for the same money because when you arew hungry and cold, you'll do anything to improve. The main problem is employers HIRING illegals, not what they are paid.
I don't care if the company knowingly hired an illegal. If they didn't do the research or check to make sure the SS number was active,t hat's they're problem and they should be fined. Good fakes are not PROPER identification. Again, this is why we need national ID cards.
I agree with you on the national ID cards UL. But you are asking that employers be fined for not doing something illegal... all to get rid of someone else doing something illegal. I agree probably the majority knowingly hire illegals but it is tough to prove in this politically correct world where it is illegal to ask a potential employee if they are married, their age or if they were a pothead.
They are doing something illegal if they are not checking to make sure social security cards, addresses, etc are correct. If they hear that someone is illegal, they should report it immediately, most don't. Asking about documentation is not illegal and never will be.
Lavos: Poor working classes shelling out? Are you at all familiar with the UK? People in that bracket pay either 10% income tax or 22%, and I'm not to sure what your point is? But when you mention the tube bombings I see that you're another who passes off the acts of 4 onto a whole bunch of people, the young men who bombed the tube system (and had nothing to do with al-Queda) were not immigrants but born in the UK.
Your bigotry shines through now nicely! You cap it off by going on a vulgar rant that just about ticks all the fictional right wing boxes.
Are you a joke?
UL: language is a powerful tool manipulated by those in power to control our opinions of others. i don't see it being used in reference to all the illegal companies, illegal because they break the law. And as you'll recall the UK is in Europe so we pay something called 'TAXES'.
10% of the people born in Mexico are now living in the US. The US currency sent "home" to Mexico is 30% of their GNP. No wonder Fox is spewing his "hot" rhetoric all over the place. I am a bit surprised that he can get some of it out with a straight face. Mexico has very stiff penalties for illegal aliens and when convicted they become felons and can serve two years in jail (unless they can afford to grease a palm or two). Even becoming a citizen of Mexico does not protect foreigners under the law. For instance, foreigners who became citizens cannot protest, become a member of the military, belong to the clergy, the police, firefighters, and so on. Foreign citizens can be told to leave at any time at the discretion of the government.
Are we the only country stupid enough to listens to whacked out arguments like these?
All these bad things about Mexico are true, and more besides. But should Mexico's bad behavior justify our own?
Yes, it's the taxes that bothers me since our government seems to think their income stream is never ending. That being the case, I'm upset at the companies who use these people for their bottom line. Illegal immigrants are the losers, tax payers are the losers, and the language used in this situation I believe obfuscates the truth.
That makes me angry, for we, the average person who beats their head against the wall trying to make a living, don't have the time to find out what is going on. The media uses the language of power to move the populace to believe and think certain things. This is not reporting, this is social engineering and it's time the MSM get the hell out of the engineering business.
Yes, you are right, DHG, language is a powerful tool, for good or for ill.
"But should Mexico's bad behavior justify our own?"
What might that be?
Here's a possible solution. Fines for illegals, and automatic tax audits for those who hire them.
Dave,
We're in the position we're in precisely because of Mexico's bad behavior. If tey would work more on their economy and education, we wouldn't have people streaming over the boarder. Anon is right (though it would be great if they chose a name). We canot be responsible for the rest of the world. Americans have list their Nationalistic pride because our government is in shambles.
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