Monday, October 24, 2005

Seal the Boarders, Declare Amnesty

Lately Georgie has been talking about a "guest worker" program for the illegal immigrants already in the US. This solution does not suggest how we keep people from continuously streaming over the boarders. I personally think that anyone found in the country illegal should be immediately deported, but with sealing the boarders and putting adequate security on patrol, this won't do much to solve the problem. I don't think anyone should be rewarded for getting here and staying here illegally, but I think amnesty needs to be granted for those here already. The cost of deporting all the illegal immigrants is just too high, and removing them from the workforce could be devastating to the economy, though I blame Americans who won't take jobs they think are "beneath them" for that. Since they're here and they are receiving health care, education, and other government services, it's time we had everyone registered so that we at least have an accurate view of the problem. This means that I am for National ID cards, as long as they are used within limits.


exMI said...

"Seal the Borders" people keep saying that as though it were an easy or practical ting to do. East Germany couldn't seal it's borders with Walls, fences, machinegun nests, and lindmines. But they came the closest of anyone except maybe North Korea which has followed the same path.

Meegan said...

This is such a complicated issue. I don't know what the solution is. I know that one of the reasons Americans won't take these jobs is because they don't pay -- the illegal immigrants earn less than minimum wage.

Saur♥Kraut said...

I'm with you up to a point. Bush is an idiot and will go down as the first US President to actually encourage illegal immigration. However, it was tacitly condoned by many administrations before him.

If we continue to condone it by sealing the borders but not returning any illegals, then we might as well say our laws were useless until it's convenient for us to exercise them.

I say seal the borders and send 'em back. If American businessmen were so greedy and narrowminded that they hired illegals, let them suffer.

Because the truth is, the American worker is willing to do the work. Just not at the price that some businessmen want to pay.

Saur♥Kraut said...

oh, and it's much easier to seal the borders than you think it is. Believe me. We have so little money and people invested in it currently that it IS impossible. But it's easily remedied if Bush chose to do it.

exMI said...

If you are willing to shoot people regularly it can be done.

Saur♥Kraut said...

P.S. And, if Bush was the Christian he claims to be, he would be upholding the laws and not trying to circumvent them. The Bible is very clear about that.

OK, I'm getting off my soapbox now...

Saur♥Kraut said...

Exmi, nope. Not true.

United We Lay said...

I didn't say it was easy, I just said it was the best solution.

So seal the boarders, deport the illegals? I'm not against that option either!

Saur♥Kraut said...

Polanco, yup! Let's look at this objectively. Our infrastructure simply can't handle all the illegals.

1) They go to emergency rooms instead of seeking standard treatment, and don't pay the bills. Thus, our bills go up.

2) They don't pay into the infrastructure via taxes, but collect Social Security when they 'retire.'

3) Who do you think is ultimately going to be paying for all this? Not the businessman who hires them. He doesn't have to pay any taxes on them whatsoever (and that's a large chunka change). In fact, he is making bigger profits as a result of it! Yay Bush!

The people who will pay for this will be us (we won't be allowed to retire as early as those who are retiring now, and our benefits will be meagre if at all). The others paying for it will be our kids. Now, that may not mean something to those of you who have no kids and aren't planning to have any. But my goal in life was always to pass on a better world to my kids and the next generation.

I could go on and on, but almost everyone knows the truth. Even those who wish to stick their heads in the sand.

michelle said...

1) They go to emergency rooms instead of seeking standard treatment, and don't pay the bills. Thus, our bills go up.

Don't get me going on this one.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Michelle, ;o) I know your thoughts on this.

exMI said...

Ok, if it is so easy to seal the borders tell me how.
Most of teh proposal I have heard thus far involve fences, walls, and "militarizing" the border. If the military get's involved peope will get shot. That is what the Army does.
Fences without guards are worthless, and with guards they slow people down but don't stop a determined person.
I am curious as to your easy solution.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Exmi, Ok, I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Tell me how it won't be easy. Let me tell you how it will be:

Fences without guards are worthless, and with guards they slow people down but don't stop a determined person.

The Berlin wall worked very well. So do walls with barbed wire.

Guards don't have to shoot. They can take the person by the arm and help them back into a bus going into Mexico. If the person becomes violent, then of course they can shoot!

If the military get's involved peope will get shot. That is what the Army does.

I'm sure many people in the military would be happy if it were so easy. The truth is, we are more a peacekeeping force than anything else. If we merely shot first and asked questions later, less of our own military would be dead.

BarbaraFromCalifornia said...

The issue is most definitely complex.

For me, I think that tighter regulations need to be put into place at our boarders, preventing those from entering in the first place. Those already here have different issues to face, along with their own children, who had little choice in the matter.

Anonymous said...

This was emailed to me...

Subject: Immigration
Think something like this isn't happening?
Scary. It is happening as you read this.....

We know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor by the name of Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal - was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream

Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that Americais too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.' "

Here is how they do it," Lamm said: "First, to destroy America, turnAmerica into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: "The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy." Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence.Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans.".

Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism'and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds."

Third, "We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: "The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentricity and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together." Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living inAmerica enforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."

"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school"

"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think that their lack of success was the fault of the majority I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."

"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship, and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece took part the Olympic games. A common enemy,Persia, threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unum" -- From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'Unum,' we will balkanizeAmerica as surely as Kosovo."

"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits; make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or xenophobe' halt discussion and debate. Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund
the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."

In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally he said,. "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia. His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book.".

There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically,quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United Statestoday. Discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in. America - take note of California and other states - to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength."

Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.

Thought provoking?
Send it on!!

The Zombieslayer said...

though I blame Americans who won't take jobs they think are "beneath them" for that.

Well, for one, are there any jobs that are "beneath" Americans? Every job that people say Americans won't do, either me, my wife, or one of my good friends has done. I think that's a big scam to keep working class wages down.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Zombieslayer, yup! It sure is. And to think I never thought it would become possible...

exMI said...

The Berlin wall worked very well. And there were machine guns nests along it to ensure people didn't try and climb over. Not to mention landmines between the rows of concertina wire. but you are right, it worked.

trust me on this, the army does alot of shooting. IT is constrained a bit now but Political Correctness and an need of politicians to suck up to the press has limited some of the things we do now.
AS for walking peopel back to Mexico, that is nice, it is what we do now, and they come right back over the next day.
And of course that begs the question of what about the peopel that aren't Mexicans?

Saur♥Kraut said...

Exmi, all valid points, I admit. But this is also America where there are alternatives to bullets; such as tazers, for instance. And a wall high enough can't be scaled. Those two things alone would take care of all the other problems you mentioned.

No, the military isn't perfect. I know that. And there are a lot of bad apples in there. But no matter why they're constrained, the fact remains that they are. They would be even more so if they were operating in America where American citizens could see and report firsthand.

Liquidplastic said...

PC, every time I come here, tea in hand, dictionary open --- prepared to get in the fray of thing, someone has already said what I desired to say. Especially what Zombieslayer said ...

"Well, for one, are there any jobs that are "beneath" Americans? Every job that people say Americans won't do, either me, my wife, or one of my good friends has done. I think that's a big scam to keep working class wages down."

I am going to start early next time, so I can say it first!

exMI said...

Actually if they were operating int eh US they would be horribly inefficient because everyone in creatin would be staring at them waiting for them to do something so they could attack the military.
If you do not want to shoot people don't send the Army. For god's sake don't send the Marines. How about if we use the Border Patrol? It is sort of their job anyway.
Do you really want to build a 100 foot high wall around the US? (I can imagine what the enviromentalists would say about that....) Besides, walls can be tunneled under too.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Dangerous area this, leads easily to racism, to the picking of a scapegoat to lambast.

Illegal immigrants doing the shitty jobs the locals won't do is a feature of any capitalist nation, its what the profits are built on. You can't live with it and you can't live without.

I hate it but what I hate more is that every once in a while, usually when the economy is in a pinch everyone starts blaming the immigrants and comes up with half assed ideas about building a freaking wall and shooting people as they approach (for a country of immigrants that's pretty shitty).

When things are booming though you hear not a peep cuz who else is gonna flip burgers and clean toilets and work in the sweat shops?

A solution? By all means I'm all for not propping up an economy on the exploitation others but someoen has to be exploited if you follow the capitalist consumer model where profit is the drive behind all business.

Oh and with an aging population claiming medicare and pensions and not working, I think you'll find that labour from immigrants will be crucial to keeping your country alive so don't build that wall just're going to need then soon.

exMI said...

Wow, I agree with DHG on something. I don't recall that happening alot.

Saur♥Kraut said...

DHG, no one is going after immigrants. What we're discussing is illegal ones. Thus, they are coming here when they aren't wanted. Why aren't they wanted? Because we're not equipped to be flooded by people. Don't cite the old standard on the Statue of Liberty to me (give me your tired, your poor...yearning to be free...yada yada yada). That was great then but this is now. We simply don't have the infrastructure to handle it all!

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Saur, illegal immigrants are a by product of a capitalist system of economics; you can't pick and choose your immigrants.

They come because people won't take the jobs they will and cuz people want to pay crappy wages.

As I said, it turns my guts but this is what you get when low cost, large profit is the rule of thumb.

What annoys me is the anger is vented at the immigrants rather than the system but its easier to pick on the poor guy rather than challenge the fundamental rules by which we live our life.

Same thing is happening in the UK.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Daniel, I do understand your point. But we will have to disagree because (frankly) I think you are seeing this wrongly. I am not a socialist, of course, so we won't be coming from common ground.

But America is not a democracy. It is a twisted sort of socialistic state that we cannot easily define because it falls into no categories. We are not monarchistic, democratic, communistic, or even purely socialistic. However, we come seem to have compromised. The problem is, the compromise is flexible depending on what party is in power.

You say people won't take the jobs. That's a common myth that has never been proven. There are no studies that uphold that view. It's an easy excuse that is made by the neo-cons to try to rationalize the allowance of illegal aliens.

But let's look at it this way: if Americans really wouldn't take that type of job, why not allow aliens in legally? The gov't could surely do that, right? The reason is that it would be detrimental to the dishonest business man who wishes to avoid the taxes that go with declaring a legal employee. If you pay them under the table, no taxes. See? So it is very pro-business to allow illegals into the country.

It is very anti-American worker.

Of course there's prejudice out there, but that isn't what's driving my argument, and I think if you look at it realistically, you can see the logic in what I'm saying (even if you don't agree).

Saur♥Kraut said...

There's a garbled sentence in there. Teach me to publish before I check it. Ah well, you get the idea.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

I agree its pro-business because pro-business is the rule by which the US and the UK (to a lesser extent) is run and that is the safety pin of the corporate, capitalist system.

And the US isn't unique, its an Empire just like all the other empires that have come and gone abeit a reluctant one but more of that later...

Kathleen said...

Daniel, you live in a country where the government plays a much bigger role in taking care of you. Americans are used to having more responsibility in providing for their own care. Unfortunately, we too are being romanced and legislated into the mentality of entitlement more and more. We have witnessed some of the sorry results during the recent hurricanes. It appears that gone are the days when we actually planned and excuted strategies for our own survival. Sigh.

Regarding the pro-business atmosphere here, I am pretty pro business myself. I spent many years volunteering on the Economic Development committee with the Chamber of Commerce in my town. I was, in part, responsible for recruiting businesses to re-locate to our city. The results are fantastic! Unemployment is wayyyy down, the economy is thriving, the arts community is flush with support and our community is considered one of the best places to live in the United States.

Saur♥Kraut said...

Good point, Kathleen. As always, we must be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Just as we can't stereotype people, we also can't stereotype businesses. There are many honorable and good businessmen who want to do the right thing. I deal with them on an almost daily basis.

Underground Logician said...

The best way to stop the illegals is for Mexico to improve its economy...then they will not want to leave. However, that's a different problem that is out of our hands for the Mexican people to solve, if they have the power to do so. Remember, Mexico has a one party system.

I suppose if we had a world communist government where we could control the movements of people, choose their jobs, punish them if they get out of line, kill them if they continue to cause trouble; adjust populations to fit the conditions of growth in a region, we could possibly eliminate the illegal immigrant problem. We'd all be driving horse drawn gutted Yugo's, but hey, we'll have Wonder Bread and Tang to eat and drink. What more could you ask for besides a slice of baloney that's past its shelf-life to make a sandwich.

I'm always wary of the do-gooder socialists who always condemn Kapitalism. They don't mind others driving horse drawn gutted Yugo's, just as long as they can have the leisure to sit at a street side cafe, drink their caramel lattes and think deep thoughts about those selfish capitalists who refuse to flip burgers.

Kathleen said...

I do know one thing. UL you are priceless. LMHO

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

UL: you is a funny conservative but unfortunately this is no laughing matter.

Don't start me Mexico and the high level of interference from the US gov since the beginning of time and then you try and pass off their woes onto communism.


Looks like you're building a wall then...

Kathleen said...


Let's hope they are attractive and financially sound.

snicksnack said...

Kathleen, The hottentots are running amok!

Sorry, it's an old quote from Bloom County. Couldn't resist it.

Kathleen said...

snicksnack: Too funny! I remember.

United We Lay said...

It is not our responsibility to improve the economy of any country but our own. We need to make sure our boarders are safe, even if the countries on either side are not financially sound. And let's remember that it isn't only Mexicans who cross the Mexican boarder illegally.

The Zombieslayer said...

UL - The best way to stop the illegals is for Mexico to improve its economy...then they will not want to leave.

The best way to do this is to put huge tariffs on China (they're the only country in the world with nukes pointed at us) and buy those stupid plastic thingies we get from China from Mexico instead. Plus, stop outsourcing jobs to China and if we're going to outsource jobs, outsource them to the American south and Mexico.

I'm always wary of the do-gooder socialists who always condemn Kapitalism.

Me too. Capitalism isn't perfect but I'd take it any day over socialism. Socialism makes everyone equally miserable, except for folks who are better at kissing a** than others, who find themselves rising up in rank.

Capitalism gives people like me and the Mrs who came from poorer backgrounds the opportunity to advance, and we've been very successful at it. Makes me glad to live in a capitalistic country, for we wouldn't be where we are today under socialism.

PC - It is not our responsibility to improve the economy of any country but our own.

Very true, but the way I see it, if we're going to send jobs somewhere, why not to our own poor folks in the South and Appalachians + Mexico. UL does have a point about getting the Mexican economy sound so they have no reason to come here.

Plus, I agree with Ralph Nader that we need to really go after companies that hire illegals. Right now, it's just a slap on the wrist.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

I love that jazz, tariff the hell out of China.


Great economics! And you know why the US can't do that becuase who own most of the US 8 trillion dollar debt? China!

Build an economy on debt and there you have it. You owe favours to all kinds of 'horrid' people.

Until you change the economic framework of the US under Bush then you're not going to solve any of your problems.

Kathleen said...

Daniel, I think you have allot to learn about economics. HA HA HA! Thinking you can lay the success or failure of the US economy at the feet of one president is silly. I wish it were so simple.

So, how is the economy in UK. I heard it is pretty good. So, you can thank Tony Blair, right?

exMI said...

We won't tariff the hell out of china because we don't want to pay more for our tee shirts and cheap plastic things. We won't get rid of illegal imigration becasue we don't want to pay more for fruits and vegetables.
The desire to not spend alot of money is a big driving issue for the little guy in this society. We are all infoavor of "doing something" about whatever until it hits us in our wallet.
Or maybe I am just cynical today.....

United We Lay said...

Bush has done an awful lot to hurt our economy, and nothing to help it, so I think a lot of blame can be placed on him.

Daniel Hoffmann-Gill said...

Kathleen, I kno wplenty about economics and if you did you'd know that Gordon Brown is the numbers man in the UK not the lord of Smarm.

As for laying it at Bush's feet, the US was int he black by a good few billion dollars when he took over, now 8 trillion in debt?

Get with it!

The Zombieslayer said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
United We Lay said...

Thank you, and well said, Daniel!