What do you do when you are the minority in a country and you know you will never be truely free there? The Pilgrims would suggest you cut and run, form your own country, and do as you wish. Considering that there are few Nations available now, what would be the current equivalent? In a so-called Democracy like this one, where the Republicratic party is in charge, shouldn't you assume that the government, with all its failings, are a direct reflection of the people? If people really care about their government, do they ever let it descend into this pit of inadequacy?
Do you find a country that shares your ideals? Do you pretend that things will change? How long should you wait to see if they do? Do you raise your children in a country where you know the majority of people they come into contact with will have moral values drastically different and from yours that are definitely highly questionable, most certainly turning them into social outcasts? Or do you take them to a place where you know you can raise them well, with a sense of personal and social responsibilty that will carry them through the rest of their lives? Logic, sel- respect, and self-preservation would seem to dictate the latter.
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Is there such a place? My belief is that you raise them well, teach them to think for themselves and let them follow on in efforts to change the world.
Good points Nsc. I have read that post of PC's. And I also worry about the influences of this society on the children. Ironically, based on previous posts, I'm willing to bet that the concerns I have are extremely different than the one's PC has.
Well, I am not sure you are in such a minority, but I know it feels like that.
Stay strong, and stick to your beliefs. I have been an 'outsider' my entire life, and I am much older than you are, AND comfortable!
Take over Texas. They have a secession (sp?) clause written into their state Constitution. Besides, they're the only state with the guns to pull it off.
As for being free, we could be free here. The common folk just need to take this country back. Don't give up hope, PC.
Texas may have the clause, but they tried it once and it didn't work.
Well...there's always the arctic circle. But short of that, you're right; we're outta land.
I suggest staying put and fighting. I am so sick of seeing hollywood stars threatening to leave and then staying. What, we were supposed to be influence? (Omigod, Alec Baldwin is moving if Bush is elected, so let's vote for the other guy!)
Besides, if you don't like something, leaving is a sure way to make sure that it continues.
Fight for what you believe in, Polanco! Don't run off with your tail between your legs. You're stronger than that!
I may not always agree with you, but I like that too. I admire your intellect, and would hate to see you cut and run.
Exmi - They did? I was under the impression that they voted to join the United States, but kept the clause in their State Constitution.
Polanco I would like to steal from Saurkraut and says, "I may not always agree with you, but I like that too. I admire your intellect, and would hate to see you cut and run."
You have certainly helped me with all my education questions, and it is much appreciated!!
This is something we're throwing around, and it really comes down to how we want to raise our children and the kind of people we want them to come into contact with. I don't want to have to shelter them, so the optimal choice is to find a place where we are more accepted. Unfortunately, this is not it. We may go home and find that people have become more tolerant and more liberal there, but I don't think so. If Roe vs. Wade goes, and many people think it will, I WILL NOT raise children in this country. I know it could go down to a state level, and in that case I think California would be a good option if it weren't for the earhquakes, since, it's been proven this week that in the case of an emergency, we can't count on our government. My husband, who is more of a pacifist than I, actually mentioned that he thought it might be a good idea to have a weapon in the house int he case of a disaster so that he can protect our family. This is really somehing that I'm looking for opinions on because I have finally had it as well, and I'm not exactly sure what to do with that.
Rebublicratic was a way of saying that there is little distinction between the Republican and Democratic parties because they're both right of center, and that the third parties don't have a voice.
I think the question is whether it has changed for the better or for the worse. If you're a Democrat or a Republican, things aren't all that bad. If you're a true liberal, too bad for you. I think we're heading in the direction of a theocracy, and more and more decisions are being made with Jesus in mind. Fine if you're Christian, but if you're not, how can your government possibly be a representation of you.
And, for it to change, the American people have to get off their asses and DO something. We need a complete overhaul of the government at this point and the only way to accomplish that is through revolution. It's obviously not happening democratically. And a MAJORITY of the people are undereducated about politics or too lazy to participate. The poeple who do fight the system their entire lives make little change, which has given many a "can't win, don't try" mentality which is seen in dictatorships. Those are not he kind of values I wan to raise my kids with. Protesters are laughed at and dismissed. No one cares, at least no one in government.
Okay, that last paragraph was a bit of a rant. My point is that I no longer believe that fighting will change anything. I can go and support Cindy Sheehan and Seth's mom, voice my opinion about the war, and be a part of that kind of protest, but I don't really believe it will change anything, not unless there are a million people or more.
Fighting the government seems a little futile at this point. Our President openly laughs at people who disagree with him. Democrats are obviously on his side because they certainly haven' been openly disagreeing, and liberals are seen as crazies and are called as much on national TV. The lawmakers don't stand up for their people. Most laws benefit corporations or the rich, and few benefit the environment. Everyone just covers their eyes and moves forward saying that things will change soon. Things WILL not change if we do not DEMAND change. Power corrupts. Money even more so. The members of our government have both, and many benefit financially from the laws they make. At the same time, people are dying because they can't afford health care or because they've gotten cancer from government or corporation polluted water and air.
I've been fighting the education system for 5 years now. I think since parents have the upper hand, I need to fight it from the inside as a parent, but that means allowing it to go on as it is until them, because no matter how right I am, very few poeple are impacted by my opinion and ideas. Also, allowing my chidlren to go into a public school system where I KNOW they will be mis-taught a variety of things and paying taxes for ANYONE to go to public school at this point is just absurd. They'll be exposed to things that they shouldn't be because schools don't give consequences anymore and parents don't take any responsibility for their behavior. I don't want them to learn the sense of entitlement that is taught now, and I think most educators would agree that curriculum has become a joke. Starting my own school is a great dream, but I've been fighting for grants and charters for a long time with no results. I can't afford to found it on my own.
If you can give me a productive way to fight and win, I will be more than happy to try it out. I really just want to raise my kids in a country I can be proud of. I am ashamed of my government and my people. Some of them are good, that's true. But if a majority of them are good, how did we get in this position in the first place.
Having thought about this, I can say, that all I want is a new President, VP to start.
They're almost always hiring teachers in my town. Once you get here and get used to the easy livin', comfortable life, you'll never want to go anywhere else.
Polanco, there you go! Move to Texas! At least it's enough like Florida that you would feel comfy there. It will be FREEZING up there soon. Yuck.
I can't wait for the cold weather. I like to ski and ice skate.
Anon,
You are entitled to your opinion. There are some things that I believe are just wrong. I have the right to express my opinion in any way I chose. At least I put my name on what I write.
I deleted your post as it has no relevence to the present discussion. Feel free to recomment under the appropriate posting. I left it up long enough for people to see your opinion and comment on it if they chose.
polanco, what bothers me about what you've been saying in the last few weeks is not your positions, but rather the way you simply will not take no for an answer. we do live in a democracy, which means compromises--i.e., if an elected official makes judgments i disagree with, i have to live with that until poll time.
you've written that there is no "your truth, my truth." so what now? government according to polanco or else?
i should clarify that i totally accept there is only one truth. but the great thing about democracy is that it doesn't require singular truth.
PC I am a minority, and this I do know from experiences, there are no guarantees in this world, no matter where you choose to live there will be problems to contend with. You just have to make do with the world that’s handed down to you. After all, the problems with the government was around before you were born, and chances are they will be here long after you have passed on.
What we can do, individually, to make a better world and life for ourselves and children, is to extend our families pass our front porch. To show, by actions, the meaning of true democracy in the world we live, which should include accepting other differences and making sure that, we set a better example than our government. At least until we can vote the bastards out!
Liquid Plastic has the wisdome of a sage, evn though she is far too young to be one!
Hey there, sugar buns. I found this link on another site and it was screaming "SHARE ME WITH POLANCO!!!"
WWW.COSTOFWAR.COM
Let's talk about the racism issue with the storm and look at some facts.
I don't like things like this...
"I am a minority, and this I do know from experiences" You're a human and a citizen of the United States - your status as a minority has nothing do do with it. You get treated like shit regardless of your skin color. Are there still racists in this country? Sure there are. There will always be a few idiots that are skinheads and klansmen. There are also always going to be a few idiots that want to preach about world domination by blacks and by muslims and all of it. The simple truth is that, save a few idiots, racism no longer exists in this country. Being black in America, or any minority for that matter, does not hold you down - or any comparable rhetoric like it. You do not get discriminated against because you are a minority and for the most part, anything you call racism is most likely your opinion and your perception because you will not stop looking for it with a microscope. Truthfully, what is your experience as a minority that shows racism exists? How has being a minority adversely affected you through your experience? Chances are, it really hasn't because it's a bullshit excuse - not a reason. This is NOT 45 years ago where that shit still existed openly. Stop using history as an excuse.
Someone pointed out to me something that really got me thinking the other day and sort of reinforced my point. You go someplace like Seattle with a huge asian immigrant population and look around and what do you see? They own everything. Why? Because they come here poor, they work hard, and they succeed and propel themselves out of the poor house. Down south, mexicans come here, they work their asses off, and their life is a thousand times better than what it used to be. Every minority group that comes here does the same thing. They work hard and excel. They do not stay in poverty forever. Some do, but the options are open...Same as they are for black people. Don't give me any shit about your chances being limited because of the black experience in America or even the minority experience in America setting you up to fail. It's bull shit. Not picking on you personally there, liquid, just using you as a general example.
Another point made by this man was made because he saw the exact same thing happen in Africa before it got some ugly he left and moved here 40 years ago. Black people complain about living in a ghetto all the time. Was it white people that made it a ghetto? NOPE! Did that one to yourself there, buddy. Those ghettos started out nice and shiny and with a little maintenance would have stayed that way. Assuming that the ghetto is and always has been a black ghetto, how does racism play a role in that? How did the black experience force the black folks to turn a neighborhood into a ghetto? What white man came along and spraypainted grafitti on the walls and broke the shit out of everything? What white man came along and forced a black man to do it? The formation of shit hole ghettos had nothing to do with segregation or race or anything like that. Remembering the assumption here, black people did that to themselves. Stop the shit.
As for the storm...
There were 500,000 people in New Orleans. That city's residents are 80% black, right? After the storm, there were 100,000 people left there - the 100,000 blacks that America supposedly hates. If it's a black thing as so many claim, how come nobody asked the real question that needs to be asked? That being...If blacks are discriminated against and need to work together to end racism and all that, and if blacks are so poor and so hopeless because being black in America means there are no opportuinties for blacks and that's why noone cares about them and all that shit...How come the other 300,000 black residents that had the means to evacuate and had the means to leave never stopped to offer a ride? How come the 300,000 blacks that left the city because they could didn't offer some of their money? Nobody mentions the 300,000 black residents that did leave. Nobody mentions that there were indeed poor white people there that couldn't leave either. It's not a black thing and it's definately not racism. I will allow for the arguement that it's a poor thing, but take the race card and wipe your ass with it. There's no room to raise it and it does more harm than it ever will do good. The black experience in America is nothing more than political posturing and the sooner people figure that out and stop tolerating it, the sooner we can, if it's what we really want to do, start addressing the real problem which is poor, not poor and black. The shit has to end and if we really want to ask tough questions here, then let's be honest with ourselves and start digging deeper into ourselves to find the answers.
Damn! need to go. Until later...
I keep coming in here to see if there's a new topic, but every time I see this headline, I want to continue to the next line and sing (in a cockney accent) "Far away from the cold night air..." (from My Fair Lady)
C'mon Daniel, join in!
Jeff, oooh. I just read your post. It is excellent. Thanks for sharing that. You made some great points.
Gee, Jeff, tell us how you REALLY feel! LOL
Saur, you made me laugh, too. I've been doing the same thing for days. Went so far as to google the lyrics so I could get past that second verse in my head. It's been so long since I've seen that movie. THEN, I heard a version of it just last night in some TV commercial. I wish I knew what that commercial was for.......
Always Questioning, *LOL* Tan Lucy Pez calls those types of songs 'ear worms' and she's right! It won't leave, and it just sits in your brain, nagging at you.
Oh where o where has our Polanco gone
Oh where o where can she be
Is she lost in the world of hating Bush
so free and openly
Oh where o where has our polanco gone
Oh where o where can she be
did she just get pissed and dissappear
because of comments left annonymously
Oh where o where has our polanco gone
oh where o where can she be
I hope that whereever she is
she's doing better than me
AND I'M DOING OK!
We all miss you and hope things are good for you. Until we are so lucky as to hear from you again...
Jeff,
Racism exists. You make some interesting poins, but there's no getting around it. I've experienced a lot of hate directed towards me because my husband is Hispanic. Not even BLACK! I can't imagine the world of shit I'd get then. There are alot of ways that people hold themselves down. Some of them do it out of anger, for others, it's a mystery. But there are also a lot of ways in which others hold them down, purposely, and for no other reason than hate. I had no idea until I married a minority and was treated differently. Sometimes I think you have to experience something first-hand to really know it exists.
As for where I've been, I spent a few days with my husband. We still haven't gotten to take a honeymoon and we needed a little break.
Liquid,
You're right. The problems exist and always have and all we can do is make the world a little better while we're living in it. I have the same approach to family. Family crosses bloodlines and borders. If you're a good person, you're family. If you're a bad person, I'll help you anyway, but you'll have to sleep on the porch. My parents took in strays (a trait my moher picked up from her mother) and I gained a lot from exchange students, friends, etc... joining our family. Holidays at our house are a "come one, come all" kind of a deal. No one is turned away from the table. In fact, I have never known my parents to turn anyone away from our table. I think only by all of us living by those rules can we recover from what our country has become. There are good people here, no doubt. But do they outnumber the ones I wouldn't want my kids to play with? That's the real question.
Sure racism still exists. But it has gotten so much better than it was. And it will continue to get better. Jef makes some interesting points but I don't agree with all of them. I do agree that always falling back on the race issue is a crutch that will not get anyone anywhere worth being.
dsyen
Always,
I would bet that our concerns are not all that different. I don't want my kids to be confronted with sexuality in the way that children are today. I want their schools to be challanging. I am worried about the violence in our society and the nonchalance with which it is used. I concerned about the way we treat each other, and especially the way we treat those who really need our support but rarely get it. I want my kids to believe in their government and its ability provide a just and secure environment. I want them to feel like their vote means something. I want them to have strong morals and value experience over expenses. I want them to be life-long learners, and I don't want them to have to morgage their futures to get an education. I will make sure that I give my children the best the world has to offer and it terrifies me that my country may not be able to offer it. Our educational system is declining rapidly, and other government run institutions will follow. I have a responsibility to my children to do what's best for them. If that means deciding between their future and my country, the choice is clear.
Exmi,
How good is good enough? If everyone is not equal, everyone is not free. That is the basis our country was founded on. We have institutionalized racism in this country. Talk to some poor blacks, hispanics, and asians who are working two jobs and just barely getting by. Ask them how many white people have been promoted over them in various jobs. Ask them how their bosses have treated them. If they're in the service industry, ask them how coustomers treat them. This is the reality of who we are as a nation. Better is not enough.
TS,
Just like you will never conceed that Christ was not the son of God, there are certain things that I believe to be right or wrong. Why must I waiver and not you? When facts are involved, there is only one truth. The problem with religion is that it's mostly speculation. Still, I will defend your right to believe whatever you wish and hold that belief as truth. There are things, however, that are not debatable. They sky is blue. They grass is green. Bush lied about WMD's. The proof is all there. Saying it isn't true doesn't make it so. I believe in the Democratic process, though I will state for the record that we live in a Republic, and not a Democracy. They good thing about a democracy is that you an see where the people in a country stand. If you believe a majority of them are wrong and you see the country heading in a direction that you believe is opposite from the Founding Fathers intent and just plain wrong besides, you have the obligationt to do what you can to set it right, if you are truly a patriot. If you cannot set it right and knopw that your life will be worse off as a result, you have an obligation to your family to seek out a better life for them. Isn't that what immigration is all about in the first place? The difference is, in the past it was largely about resources, in the future, it'll be about ideas.
married ten years = ex wife's name before it became Neely = Sandoval.
100% pure blood mexican from over the border.
Not to hurt your feelings, but I still have to throw the bullshit flag.
Love ya though. Hope the time away was good and the sex was better.
Until later...
polanco,
i'm not asking you to be intellectually dishonest. i'm just saying you have to accept the compromises that come with living in a republican democracy.
yes, bush hyped wmds. but he didn't have to lie because *everyone* already believed saddam had wmds. anyway, for me, it's not the crisis-of-the-century. i have opinions about it, but i'm not going to move to canada yet.
"How good is good enough? If everyone is not equal, everyone is not free. That is the basis our country was founded on. We have institutionalized racism in this country. Talk to some poor blacks, hispanics, and asians who are working two jobs and just barely getting by. Ask them how many white people have been promoted over them in various jobs. Ask them how their bosses have treated them. If they're in the service industry, ask them how coustomers treat them. This is the reality of who we are as a nation. Better is not enough."
WHAT THE FUCK?
Are you saying that white people don't have to work two jobs to just barely get by? Most people I know have two jobs. EVERY family I know has two working parents and almost all of them are just barely getting by. Perhaps, now maybe this is just me being on the fence again, but perhaps this has more to do with our fiscal irresponsibility as a country more than our skin color? I am currently...carry the one...just over 40,000 in debt and that doesn't include my house. Let me break it down and be as honest as possible...
I bought my house not fully understanding the prices I was about to encounter. I should not have paid as much as I did for a house and had I had it to do again, I wouldn't have because I can't barely afford it. Here is a breakdown of my monthly bills...
Car insurance - $100.00
Cell phone - $60.00
Internet and house phone - $90.00
Term life insurance - $60.00
Satellite tv - $115.00
House alarm an exterminator (bad insect problems because of the environment, mostly ants, so monthly exterminator is necessary) - $100.00 combined.
Average electric bill - $450.00
Water - $30.00
Mortgage (mortgage @ 6%, taxes, and insurance) - $1400.00
1 credit card - high balance = high minimum payment - $300.00
1 loan = $700.00
I am learning the hard way with the credit. but I sort of had no choice. That, or starve. I finally decided I've had enough and I scrape by. No more credit ever again. I eat A TON of Top Ramen. My house was $140,000. My loan balance is just over $25k and the credit card is just over $15k. I have no savings and no investments. NOTHING. No slush fund to draw from. Used to have that stuff, but a robbery occured where my safe was stolen right after arriving in Texas and all of my investments (stocks and bonds and the like = gone). In the last year, I have been working hard at snowballing my debt and have paid off some smaller ones and life is getting better. It used to be very much worse.
For those keeping score...
That's a whopping total of $3405 dollars per month minimum bills not including any entertainment, food, or gas.
I'm single and pay single taxes. The only thing I can write off is my house. I'm divorced and thankfully to fuck have no kids and no alimony payments to make.
On the other end of the equation...
I make $30.00 per hour at my job. A wage most people I know would die for. A wage I sometimes find myself embarassed to share with people because they get quite jealous of it. Without overtime, my salary is $62,400 a year on a 40 hour week which places me in the top 10 percent of the country.
12 x 3405 = $40,860
62,400 - 40,860 = $21,540
After taxes (assuming 27%), $62,400 gets whittled down to $45,552 per year.
45552 - 40860 = $4692.00
$4692.00/12 months = $391.00 to eat and buy gas with each month and everything else I may have to do.
Blessedly, I get a little overtime, but not that much. The thing is, Imagine if I lived in one of those places where a shit hole shack costs $400,000 like so many people are paying for houses all the time? Or even $280,000 which is close to the countries median. Imagine if I had two kids to feed. Imagine if I had to pay child support for a kid. (I got sued for child support a short while back and before I got to prove it wasn't mine, the court system set my child support at $1500.00/month. You want to see someone shit their pants...) These are things most people I know pay. All of a sudden, my $391.00 of spending money gets really really really thin. Thinner even than my sex life, which is pretty thin! Imagine if I had to pay self employment taxes or health care. I drive a cheap Honda Civic. Imagine if I had a car payment or two on a $40,000 SUV? Imagine if I had a $400 or $500/month gas bill to drive it the fuck to work and back like some of my co workers. Imagine also if I had to pay for my health insurance. Be honest, how different are your numbers from mine. I, ME, I barely make it and I know I make more than most people and have less bills. I, ME, I got myself into this mess. I, ME, I am white. I, ME, I fell into the same traps everyone else does. I got credit happy and got sucker punched in the nuts by a system that we have let get out of control. It is a system that is aimed against ALL of us and to tell me that skin color has fuck all to do with it is bullshit. PURE UNADULTERATED BULL SHIT! Call me crazy, but I bet every single person that reads this is in the same boat I am and maybe worse. None of us likes to admit it, we like to lie to ourselves about our situations because we get our bills paid and still manage to find a way to eat, but we are. We are all prey to it. That trap of easy deferred payment and easier credit limits is too tempting to resist. WE as a country are irresponsible and stupid and greedy. We all want to live beyond our means and thanks to an even more greedier than we are system of credit and lending and banking in this country, it's easy, so so so easy to do. And once those fucks get their hands in your pocket, it never goes out until you make it go out. Until WE change our way of thinking and OUR way of doing things, we will All be in this same situation for a very long time and it will only get worse. AND IT SURE THE FUCK HAS NOTHING - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - TO DO WITH OUR SKIN COLOR! Stop selling yourself on that shit idea. That's just talking about being poor.
How about racial discrimination in another aspect...
Let's look at affirmative action. Do you think it works? Do you think it is good? Fuck no it isn't and here's why...The reason we have it is to basically force a place, such as a college, to fill a certain amount of seats with a person based on their skin color, correct? In order to give blacks a fair and equal opportunity, we say that if 20% of the population is black then 20% of the student population HAS to be black. What about the other guys? What about the white guys? I'm not saying that there should be less black people and more white one's in college, I'm saying that by establishing these seats as seats for black people, you are limiting the chance of others to take the seat. How is that not the exact same thing you are trying to eliminate? Affirmative action by it's very definition is a discriminatory practice and is not unlike trying to define a word by using the word in the definition. You can't do it. It's counter productive and wrong. In the end, it does more harm than good. Again, entitlement rather than achievement.
Reminds me of a thought I ahd the other day. Martin Luther King was a great leader. Truly a great black man. What sets him so much higher than the black leaders of today is that MLK always talked about equal equal equal. I'm the same as you, just a different skin tone. Today's leaders talk about different different different. MLK just wanted to open the door so black people could have the equal chance to EARN their way, something they didn't have back then. Today's leaders want you to open the door for them, and pull out their chair, and hand them a pass. MY MY MY, what a long, sad cliff we have fallen off of. Did we not learn anything?
I've also giggled alot many times to myself because MLK and Malcolm and so many others lost their lives struggling to prove that we are all the same. That the only difference between me and you is skin color. They died for that. Since then, Every black comic I have ever seen made his living pointing out just the opposite. Well, all except for Micheal Winslow...he makes funny noises. Now that's a talent.
And here's one more tidbit to chew on before I call it...
I live in west texas and guess what? You aren't gonna like hearing this any, but I, ME, I am a minority here. There are more mexicans than whites. Not to pick on you again, Liquid, but what about the white experience in america. What about my experience as a minority? What about my affirmative action? Yeah, when pigs shit on my car instead of birds!
There's some more for you to chew on and ponder again. I tell you, until people stop looking at skin color and stop always looking for a reason to scream racism, racism will never end. Not as long as we keep creating it anyhow.
Until later...
Jeff, You are in Texas. Things are a little different in the rest of the world. I don't know how long you've been there, but Florida is an entirely different ball game. Not to mention Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia, and all of the Mid-Western States. I know you mean well and I'm trying not to get angry, but your argument about this not being a racist country doesn't hold water. Marry a black girl and see what happens then. Also, it is more accepted in this county for a white guy to marry anyone of any race than it is for a white women. I can' count the times crackers told me my daddy was probably disappointed in me for my choice. We've had people say things to us in parking lots, tell kids within earchot that if they married outside their race they'd be disowned, and just openly call names. I've had men approach me in restaurants when my husband's been in the bathroom and say hings, and not all of them were rednecks. I've had businessmen offer to se me up with their sons so that I could find a "nice man". so don't tell me there's no racism. Just because you haven't experienced it personally doesn't mean it's not there.
TS,
A republican democracy is not a democracy at all. I refuse to compromise on some things. I will not allow my country to govern my womb. I will not allow them to send my son off to die in a war that means NOTHING, is for NOTHING, and was based on lies. I will not compromise on having a JUST legal system. They only way to save us now is to rework the government. The Founding Fathers said it's an obligaion when you get to the point where your government (republican AND democrat) is so entirely corrupt. Why do I have to compromise and they don't?
Also, Jeff, Affirmative Action is bullshit. It's a quota system and nothing more. It was put in place because the racist attitudes of this country haven't changed.
sorry, i wasn't refering to the republican party, but to the adjective form of republic.
i would agree with you about overthrowing the government if i deemed that necessary, but i don't. maybe i have a higher threshold for injustice and corruption than you do. :-P
ts
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